The Self-grasping Presents How Its Apprehended Object Exists Nominally

Debate Between Wisdom and Ignorance Note 6:
The Self-grasping Presents How Its Apprehended Object Exists Nominally

The Self-grapsing says to the wisdom:

I arrived simultaneously with the mind [19]
In a mere nominal way.
If you do not assert a really existing ‘I’,
And deny nominal existence

Have you not fallen into the extreme of nihilism? [20]
Cause and effect, dependent arising, action and activity
Are thoroughly pervaded by me.
Therefore, you go wherever you have to go to!

As I do not exist ultimately I came simultaneously with the mind relatively. If we look at the way we exist, you, the wisdom, do not exist ultimately, and did not come together with the mind ultimately, and likewise also me, the ignorance, do not exist ultimately and did not come together with the mind ultimately. I came together with the mind in a relative or nominal manner.

If one views nominally existing phenomena it is denial. If one denies nominal phenomena one falls into the extreme of nihilism. Therefore, have you not fallen into the extreme of nihilism? The phenomena of cause and effect, dependent arising and action and activity are conventional phenomena and their appearance is pervaded by me.

Self-Grasping says that since cause and effect, dependent arising and action and activity always appear truly, their appearance is always pervaded by it. Since it pervades all their appearances it will stay and the wisdom, should go wherever it has to go to!’

You are unsuitable to remain here [21]
Amongst our nominal actions and activities.
You, the one without ultimate true existence,
Since you contradict me, begone!

The self-grasping says:

‘Without true existence the actions and activities of cause and effect are not possible. We, the self-grasping and the mind etc., nominally perform actions and activities, which would not be possible without true existence. Without true existence nominal actions would not be possible, yet nominal actions and activities exist and I, the true-grasping, perform nominally actions and activities. Hence, you the wisdom, are unsuitable to remain amongst us. You without ultimate truth, you contradict me. Be gone!’

The wisdom destroys that notion

The Wisdom Destroys that Notion:
The wisdom says in return: [15bcd]
Because the mind, since first coming into existence,
Has never been experienced as existing ultimately,

Who did you abide together with? [16]
Since you too are completely non-existent
From an absolute point of view,
Who is taking whose side, who is, among other things,

Defending and supporting whom? [17ab]
Go where you have to go and do not return!

That called mind has not been experienced as having a self or being established as having a self since its very first coming into existence. Yet you grasp at it as having a self and say that you have accompanied that mind since beginningless time, so with whom exactly did you abide together with simultaneously?

From the point of view of absolute existence or ultimate existence also you, the self-grasping, do not exist at all. Therefore, from the point of view of absolute existence, neither the mind nor you do exist. While you say you grasp at the mind as having a self it does not have a self.

Hence, who is taking the side of whom? Who is defending and supporting whom? You would need to take the side of a mind with a self and defend it, but such a mind does not exist. Your whole concept is unrealistic and unacceptable.

Stop talking, go where ever you have to go and do not return!

Sentient beings fell under the control of mind, and the mind in turn fell under the control of you, the self-grasping. Due to this they started to be seduced by distractions, to be attached to praise and fame, to be attached to friends and relatives, to think about these actions and activities of this life, to be attached to the side of self and have hatred for the side of other due to the unrealistic conception, and thus start fights and arguments, and to be sidetracked by the meaningless and harmful actions of this life.
In short, the one who generates all non-virtue and suffering and destroys all virtue and happiness is you alone, the self-grasping.

Since you are not experienced as existing ultimately, with whom do you exist together? Since you do not exist at all in an accurate ultimate way, who is defending whom with arguments, and who is looking after whom?

Hence, since your determined object is refuted, you are exorcised from the root. Go wherever you have to go to, and do not return!


The self-grasping says in return

The self-grasping says in return: 12d

From the very moment it came into existence 13
I have accompanied the mind,
Taking its side and arguing for it.
Like a father and mother loving their child,

I lovingly gave support, food and clothing. 14
I lead it through the door of the dharma of 
The three poisons of desire and so forth.
If I do not overcome the enemy of the accumulation of virtue 

Then who will overcome this enemy? 15a

Self-grasping replies,

“From the very moment mind came into existence I have accompanied it. When the ‘I’, i.e. the person, needed someone to take its side, then I did it. When it needed someone to defend it against enemies, then I defended it and stopped the enemies. Like a father and mother that love their child I lovingly gave support, food and clothing.

Attachment, hatred and ignorance are generated through the force of self-grasping. Just as one is induced into the virtuous dharma by the virtuous teacher, here the self-grasping says: ‘I am the one that induces the person to walk through the door of non-virtuous dharma. I am the one that brings forth attachment, hatred and ignorance.”

Since these afflictions destroy the accumulation of virtues it further says, “I am also the one that destroys the enemy that is virtue. If I do not this then who will destroy the enemy that is virtue? If I am not there then nobody will do it. I have generated attachment and through that I achieve what is needed. I have generated anger and through that conquered enemies. I also destroy patience and love, which are the enemy. I am of greatest benefit for the mind.”